Talk:Hassan Nasrallah

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2024

Hezbollah (“Party of God,” also spelled Hizballah) is an Iran-backed Lebanese Shia militia and U.S.-designated Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO)

Cite https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF10703#:~:text=Hezbollah%20(%E2%80%9CParty%20of%20God%2C,Foreign%20Terrorist%20Organization%20(FTO). 213.78.47.218 (talk) 17:43, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Skitash (talk) 20:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2024 (2)

Hassan Nasrallah was involved in an assassination attempt by the Israeli Defense Forces at 27 September 2024, Friday. Namnaam (talk) 18:47, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

until confirmation from the lebanese health ministry of hezbollah we cant be sure if hes dead or alive but israel did claim to assasinate him in 2006 so its best we wait 185.127.183.12 (talk) 20:08, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Skitash (talk) 20:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

What was his net worth?

Does anyone have reliable references regarding his wealth, and who is set to inherit his assets? 120.18.67.177 (talk) 19:28, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 September 2024 (3)

2A0E:1D47:C603:8500:9195:5C9A:EE12:C564 (talk) 22:47, 27 September 2024 (UTC) death 27/09/2024 by air strike Beirut

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Rainsage (talk) 02:06, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Pro-Zionist Biases

Are we sure, that this page is not filled with Pro-IDF biases? BangladeshiEditorInSylhet (talk) 04:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you give an example of one in the page currently? TheBooker66 (talk) 06:06, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2024

Add The following title to source 6, so the template may function correctly: "Israel targets Nasrallah in bombing of Hezbollah HQ; increasingly believes it killed him". The title has been copied from the source. TheBooker66 (talk) 06:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2024 (2)

Change death to still alive. 2001:861:8C91:E180:5175:7F44:3EB6:9562 (talk) 08:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Sam Sailor 08:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Alarabiya Arabic news confirms his death

I am tuned in to multiple news channels at the moment and they have officially confirmed his death, according to the Israeli military (IDF). No written sources yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Werkwer (talk • contribs) 08:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

https://x.com/Israel/status/1839939956854132917 122.150.211.181 (talk) 08:31, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Death

Are we all updating information before verification? NyctoReveric (talk) 08:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

The page now laughably says that that the IDF (lol) "confirmed" that he was killed. And the reference is to some random Twitter user. 86.164.94.167 (talk) 08:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

that "random" twitter user is the IDF. https://x.com/IDF/status/1839937408587968917 CViB (talk) 08:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hassan_Nasrallah&diff=prev&oldid=1248214785 86.164.94.167 (talk) 09:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

...it's the IDF. Not Hezbollah. Wait until Hezbollah makes an official statement regarding this.

The link also just says that Nasrallah won't "no longer be able to terrorize the world". This is the actual link to the IDF's official statement: https://idfanc.activetrail.biz/ANC2809202419827556, and this is the press briefing for the bombing. Jebotiacimmater (talk) 10:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah confirmed the death of Hassan Nasrallah. Jebotiacimmater (talk) 12:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2024 (3)

The IDF has confirmed his death. Namnaam (talk) 08:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Is there a link? Or was it a news publication? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 08:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

https://x.com/IDF/status/1839937408587968917 Jjbomb (talk) 08:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

The IDF "confirms" a lot of things that later turn out to be unverified or unreliable. How do the IDF know? They're not exactly on the ground to make any confirmation. If Hezbollah or Lebanese authorities confirm that he is dead, then we should update the article, but unless the IDF can present a body, any confirmation of his death from them cannot be considered reliable. JSUMN (talk) 08:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Moreover, the rapid posts requesting extended-confirmed-protected edits on this issue in succession, within a few minutes of each other, is clear and obvious brigading. JSUMN (talk) 08:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

There’s been an official confirmation of his death but the page is locked and no one is bothering to change it.

Occam’s razor: people are requesting the change because it’s an obvious change to make, not because there’s a Zionists conspiracy. 2A05:BB80:34:7E2F:A8C2:613F:C446:ED7E (talk) 08:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

It seems like my comments are being reverted, so let's try again.

@JSUMN, please don't WP:ACCUSE people of brigading without any proof and because of a news publication. You're violating community guidelines.

Moreover, I don't remember any terrorist organization or government showing people a public picture of the body of a decreased so the expectation is far fetched. Bar Harel (talk) 09:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

With the death of Osama bin Laden or Abu Bakr al Baghdadi, confirmation came from the organizations they headed themselves, which we can presume to be reliable.

As for the warning, some of these users are blatantly now putting racial slurs in the talk page (see the above section and the one below) JSUMN (talk) 09:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

With the unique death of Osama bin Laden, the United States has shown an exotic image of what was left of his face, and then the confirmation came.

In some other cases deaths were faked.

Brigading however is a form of meatpuppeting which is obviously not the case here when the headlines all over the world are citing the IDF confirmation. Some of the racial slurs from unconfirmed users are probably being added because of the false accusations for brigading and the insistence to try and rebuke the IDF confirmation. Bar Harel (talk) 09:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

The IDF confirming things has a big track record for being the truth, I mean they literally bombed the guy Jjbomb (talk) 08:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Many IDF confirmations of things used to justify strikes have later been proven dubious by international investigations. Regardless, it is strange to take a confirmation of death at face value when we have no proof of their death. It's hearsay until Hezbollah or the Lebanese authorities confirm his death, or until Israel presents us with proof. JSUMN (talk) 08:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

The IDF would have no reason to confirm their archenemy's death without knowing it for a fact, there's no reason for Israel to risk the absolute embarrassment of the man showing up on TV the next day.

We can wait for Lebanese input but short of them providing proof of life, he is very much dead. 105.155.13.251 (talk) 08:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Please stop claiming that Hezbollah, a terror organization, is a reliable source.

I wish to know according to what policy Hezbollah's confirmation is more reliable than the IDF's considering terror organizations akin to Hezbollah has lied time and time again regarding deaths of their personnel in order to try and fool others. Bar Harel (talk) 09:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

The IDF also has a history of misidentifying targets in strikes (see my post below) and Hezbollah would be a more reliable source specifically about the death of Hassan Nasrallah because they have access to him. JSUMN (talk) 09:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

"The IDF "confirms" a lot of things that later turn out to be unverified or unreliable" Such as? CViB (talk) 08:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Claims in prior wars in Gaza of UN hospitals and schools being used as weapons storage facilities, which have widely been debunked, including by UN investigations. JSUMN (talk) 08:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you cite even one such "debunking"? (Personal attack removed) 2A06:C701:4A3C:A400:9D76:23EF:4D49:1858 (talk) 09:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

From Wikipedia's own page on the Al-Fakhura school bombing:

"The report admits the possibility of Palestinian militant activity in the area, but states that the credibility of Israel's government was "damaged by the series of inconsistencies and factual inaccuracies", citing "erroneous allegations of who specifically was hit". The report regards the government's version of events on January 6th as being "erroneous" and "a result of the immediate outcry", factually conflicting with later official Israeli investigations published on April 22. It also points out the incorrect identities of the dead, and that none of the seven names made available by the CLA through the press corroborate with the identities produced by the investigation's findings. Citing these and other incongruities, it describes the version stated by Israeli authorities as giving "the impression of either profound confusion or obfuscation"."

Which cites this:

https://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-48.pdf JSUMN (talk) 09:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I disabled the edit request because such a request is only suitable when it is agreed that an edit should be made. The above discussion shows that the situation is unclear (obviously) and an edit request cannot be fulfilled. Please wait for reliable sources. Johnuniq (talk) 09:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Page protection probably needed

The amount of forum-violations and repetitive edit requests is through the roof. We might need to semi-protect the talk page for a day or two. Jeppiz (talk) 08:58, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree, it's very blatant brigading spam. JSUMN (talk) 09:00, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2024 (4)

It has not been confirmed that Nasrallah was killed by IDF during the Sept. 27 attacks. This is a claim made by IDF. Biased and not confirmed by Hezbollah. 95.98.97.28 (talk) 09:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". El_C 09:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:1RR, WP:ARBPIA now in effect

Thank you. El_C 09:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@El C: Can you also put ARBPIA to this article? Ali Karaki. GrabUp - Talk 10:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Also Protect the article please. GrabUp - Talk 10:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Huh? What article? El_C 10:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@El C: Ali Karaki. GrabUp - Talk 10:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't read. Done. El_C 11:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Is or was

'Is or was' is in no way an academic or scholarly definition of the state of an individual's being, at the most with regard to a military leader. It should be mentioned hereon out that it is unclear at the present moment that reports of Israeli assassination are verifiable or not, but until it is proven with due regard to the standards of sources that Wikipedia uses, 'is' should be the sole used word. Based47 (talk) 09:27, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I changed it to "is" because having both is absurd. APK hi :-) (talk) 09:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Your edit violates WP:NPOV - we have reliable sources reporting a significant view (the Israeli military's) stating that he is dead, but your version claims otherwise.

Just a comment, we do not have reliable sources confirming Nasrallah's death. It is only hearsay at the moment and no evidence has been presented by either sides. Hezbollah and Iran's proxies are completely contradicting Israel's statement, while the IDF reported that Nasrallah is dead. It is best to wait for the dust to settle and for more information to pop up as this case evolves. TwistedAxe [contact] 09:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Twistedaxe: Please do not break up other editors' comments by inserting your own. Also note that I wrote reliable sources reporting a significant view [...] stating that he is dead, not reliable sources confirming Nasrallah's death.

As for Hezbollah and Iran's proxies are completely contradicting Israel's statement, which sources are you referring to exactly? If you meant the September 27 Reuters article that is currently cited in the article for the sentences A source linked to Hezbollah initially stated to Reuters that Nasrallah was alive, while the Iranian Tasnim News Agency reported that he was safe. and A senior Iranian security official also noted to Reuters that Iran was in the process of verifying his condition: These actually predate Israel's confirming statement. Are there more recent dementis from Hezbollah or Iran? Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

My apologies for the breakup of replies, it was not intended. Also, so far, no, there are no more recent sources for this. According to the Guardian [1], Hezbollah has yet to reply to this statement made by Israel. TwistedAxe [contact] 10:31, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

And I'm not sure what this talk about an academic or scholarly definition or at the most with regard to a military leader is about. "X or Y" is a standard way in the English language to express that one of two statements is true. If it doesn't match your stylistic preferences, feel free suggest an alternative wording. But informing our readers accurately and in line with Wikipedia policy has to take precedence over editors' personal aesthetic predilections. Regards, HaeB (talk) 09:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Do not change "Nasrallah" to "was", "dead", etc until his death has been confirmed

I see alot of people editing the article to say that Nasrallah is dead. While, yes, the IDF and Israel has claimed Nasrallah is dead, this is not a neutral reliable source. Iranian sources aswell as Hezbollah directly oppose Israel's claims aswell. While neither side would be considered reliable, the best case scenario is to wait for either side to give an update with actual evidence or for an outside source (neutral source) to verify either sides claim. We need to let the dust settle before we say that Nasrallah is dead or not. No evidence has been presented by either side so far. The assassination itself has been thoroughly noted in the article. TwistedAxe [contact] 09:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree GrabUp - Talk 10:08, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

No, he's alive that's just Israeli intimidation, he still lives so we just add that Israel had made an assassination attempt on him Ultimate Tai (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any reliable source that can backup this claim? TwistedAxe [contact] 10:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Intimidation? I doubt that's what they're trying to do. IDF saying they killed someone and it later turns out to be false would be pretty embarrassing for them. Imo Kiwiz1338 (talk) 10:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree Thomas Blomberg (talk) 10:30, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

We need to let the dust settle before we say that Nasrallah is dead or not. - agreed, but the problem is that we currently do exactly that in the article's first sentence, by using "is" exclusively. I.e. we state there in Wikipedia voice that he is alive and that the Israeli claim is false. That is a NPOV violation.

As for Iranian sources aswell as Hezbollah directly oppose Israel's claims aswell - which sources are you referring to exactly, the initial reactions from yesterday (see preceding section)? Have there been any dementis disputing the Israeli military's more recent statement that it had confirmed the death? Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the Islamic Republic and Hezbollah prove he's alive, (even though I'm an ethnic Arab)......even the Arab governments and Qatar's Al Jazeera say this is Israeli intimidation.... they're saying it in Arabic.....he isn't dead Ultimate Tai (talk) 10:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

That sounds interesting, thanks, but mere claims in a talk page comment are not sufficient for informing changes in the article - we would need reliable, published sources reporting these dementis (see WP:CS). Regards, HaeB (talk) 11:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

One could absolutely argue that NPOV in this case is questionable. However, I'd argue that if we can't confirm if he's dead or not, we adhere to the status quo and don't make any changes. While, yes, "is" could refer to him still alive, it doesn't really convey that the Israeli claim is false. However, it is understandable if some people misunderstand that part, hence why NPOV can be kind of objected in this instance. Also, as others have pointed out (Smallangryplanet & Alon Alush), we are adhering to WP:NOTNEWS & WP:BDP. TwistedAxe [contact] 11:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree. WP:BDP applies here as Nasrallah is a WP:PUBLICFIGURE, and there are as yet no third party sources documenting what has happened. All current claims come from Israel, which is clearly not a neutral or unbiased source. Even if a RS is saying that Israel said XYZ, the underlying claim can't be verified (and most truly reliable RS are saying that there's no way to verify it). It is not an NPOV violation to adhere to WP:NOTNEWS, either.

Smallangryplanet (talk) 10:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree - Wikipedia states that "contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". The IDF is arguably an unreliable source in this context. Alon Alush (talk) 10:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

That’s dam true. GrabUp - Talk 10:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Ues, that's true the IDF will post for their benefits Ultimate Tai (talk) 11:00, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I sense some confusion in the references to WP:BLP in this and the preceding comment. We have lots of independent reliable sources reporting the IDF statement (BBC, AP, Al Jazeera, etc. etc.), which undoubtedly makes it a "significant view" in the sense of WP:NPOV, requiring its inclusion in the article. It is not at all "contentious material [...] that is unsourced or poorly sourced" in the sense of WP:BLP. I also don't see anyone except perhaps Smallangryplanet proposing to remove it entirely from the article under WP:NOTNEWS.

Rather, what Twistedaxe is saying is that for now, it should not be reported in Wikipedia voice (i.e. without qualification), and not presented as the only view on the question whether he is alive or not.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 11:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Agree Personisinsterest (talk) 11:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Disagree - Hezbollah has now confirmed his death, among other sources.[2] Personisinsterest (talk) 12:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Personisinsterest: See later updates below. — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 12:06, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Also a general reminder that Wikipedia articles should always be based on independent reliable sources anyway, see WP:IS. As is also evident from this talk page, lots of people on the Internet love to rant about their personal opinions about whether the IDF or Hezbollah or Iran is a credible source. But those opinions are rather irrelevant here, as (per WP:NPOV) we have to instead rely on the judgments of those independent reliable sources on whether a particular statement of such a government or organization is noteworthy and/or credible. Regards, HaeB (talk) 11:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Correct. It needs to be unbiased no matter what. The only issue here is that all of these news outlets are more or less reporting on the same thing - the fact that the IDF (the primary source in this case) claims that Nasrallah himself is dead without any evidence to back up their claim. One can also argue that the IDF in this case is a biased/unreliable source because of the context. TwistedAxe [contact] 11:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

We should be practical, when the Palestinians spoke of Israeli terror, Iran and Hezbollah and the Arab state media(s) reported them yet, everyone said they're "unreliable"...... let's not repeat the discrimination labelling it as "personal" Ultimate Tai (talk) 11:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I think this comment indicates a lack of familiarity with Wikipedia's policies around reliable sources. I have followed up at User_talk:Ultimate_Tai#Reliable_sources, as this particular discussion here (and the various vocal worries that Wikipedia would fall victim to IDF misinformation in this case) is moot now. Regards, HaeB (talk) 12:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Just now was confirmed by Hezbollah itself. HiyoriX (talk) 11:34, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, the Times has it. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 11:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

And Al Jazeera. — ClaudineChionh (she/her · talk · contribs · email) 11:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Nasrallah is dead. Thank you everyone for your patience in this matter. TwistedAxe [contact] 11:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

France confirms Hezbollah chief Nasrallah killed in Israeli strike

From Reuters, quoted by the Times of Israel (among other media): https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/france-confirms-hezbollah-chief-nasrallah-killed-in-israeli-strike/ RaphaelQS (talk) 11:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you link me a source that isn't the Times of Israel? I can't seem to find any other source reporting on this. TwistedAxe [contact] 11:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/c981g8mrl8lt?post=asset%3A12e4651a-62af-432f-8600-948fa0144f62#post Joshposh70 (talk) 11:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah confirms death

Several reliable media (BBC, Le Figaro, etc.) now reporting Hezbollah confirms his death. Jeppiz (talk) 11:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. Article is being edited to reflect this. TwistedAxe [contact] 11:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Al-Manar confirmed his death. Jebotiacimmater (talk) 12:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)